Probst brings up some valid points about how to engage students in learning English. Comparing Tom Sawyer's tactics of pedagogy wasn't a bad idea - however we are dealing with two completely opposing forces - painting and teaching English (and for the purpose of this chapter, teaching students discourse). Probst says that "There aren't many models of civil discourse for our students to learn from," (45) which I find to be true. There isn't a standardized test (to my knowledge) on discourse itself (and there shouldn't have to be at any rate). It's true that some teachers aren't expanding on the practice of talking, and parents aren't spending time teaching it (because they expect the teachers to be doing this job!) I do not recall a time when I was sitting in an English class and was taught the dynamics of discourse or speech. Sure we learned parts of speech and the occassional vocal repitition of those words we didn't understand, but never did a teacher teach the instruction of conversation. It never occurred to me either how this segment of English Language Arts is often neglected, until I read about it in this chapter. It's hard enough to initiate a succinct conversation in a classroom, especially when students are faced with a myriad of issues. They may not understand the material, and may not know how to ask questions in a clear manner. They may have a fear of speaking in front of their peers, or they simply cannot be bothered. There also becomes the inevitable time in students' lives where they think they know everything and don't need to listen what has to be said by teachers. I think it is important to find some way to engage each student individually - make them feel needed and make them know that their voice is important not just to the teacher, but to themselves and their peers.
The "Find the Poem" activity doesn't sit well with me. I had this exact scenario played out in a new school, first day eleventh grade English class. The discussion was something like:
"Hey. Let me see what you got."
"Okay."
"I think it works."
"Yup, me too."
"Okay, I'll just say that my part goes after your part because it sounds right."
"Sure, sounds good."
End conversation. This cannot be considered a useful activity. Sure, some students will engage, but others, like me, will remain passive and questioning the point of the activity instead of trying it out. The sticky note activity, I found to be constructive and invites students to talk and ask questions with one another. I don't even mind the "artificial" appeal that Probst states. As far as I'm concerned, there are far more artificial and non-productive activities and pedagogies that float around in classrooms these days.
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I agree with Lacy. Throughout english education rarely to never, do teachers teach students how to "talk" effectively in class. Though teachers always want students to participate and get involoved with the lesson, oftentimes teachers do not educate the students in a proper way to talk in class that will not only make the conversation flow, but also make the students feel comfortable within the classroom setting. I think that it is important to consider that while trying to initiate class discussion, that not every student will feel comfortable to talk and share their views and ideas in front of the class as a whole. That is why I feel it is the job of the teacher to create an atmosphere where students feel that their views are accepted and appreciated. I think that having a "talking" classroom is crucial to a students development, however in order for it to be established successfully the teacher needs to allow his/her students to enter the classroom with an opened mind and value their voice.
Talking most definitely is a fundamental part of learning English. However, the first time I ever took a class that focused on this was my freshman year in college. Public Speaking is the only course I have ever taken that dealt specifically with the idea of speaking as communication. This idea should be implemented at a much younger age - we should already know how to speak if we can make it to college.
The only people in high school that took speaking classes were those with speech impediments. Perhaps if everyone took a speaking class, they would be more comfortable with their language. This could improve their conversational and discussion skills within class, as well as spill over into their writing.
The idea of the sticky notes is a very good one. It's basically what we did during our Socratic Seminar, which worked out very well.
I totally agree with what Corey said about taking speaking classes at younger ages. I felt that when I was in high school even, people were very hesitant to speak out in class. Whether it was because they didn't care, didn't want to be there, or they thought people wouldn't want to listen to what they had to say they simply didn't say anything to avoid being singled out. I feel that especially in English we should be open and want to voice our opinions and contribute to discussion. As teachers like Amanda said, it is our job to create an environment in which students feel comfortable. Along with this idea as well as taking classes to learn HOW to speak in a classroom setting, I think students would be more open to class discussion. I took public speaking as well, and it helped me a lot. I am not the most shy person to begin with, however, it did help me contribute better and in a more effective way. Public speaking can help students of all types, but there is a certain point when the student has to have the desire to learn it, or it will not be effective. If it is implemented at an early enough age, it will be ingrained and the classroom will have a much more active environment if everyone is participating
I like this solution that we all seem to agree upon here, taking a public speaking class at an early age. I know when I was in high school, I was actually extremely comfortable speaking in front of my peers because being from a small town, I knew all of my classmates extremely well. This, however, changed drastically my freshman year of college here at Plattsburgh. I came here with my boyfriend at the time, knowing no one else. As I was thrust into this environment with no preparation, speaking in class, whether it be to voice my opinion or simply answer a clear cut question, was and continues to be a challenge for me. I feel this holds true for many students, especially those coming from the comfort of high school and knowing their classmates.
Along with the sticky note idea (which I also like), I definitely agree with requiring public speaking classes earlier on in a student's education. As well as teaching public speaking skills in everyday English courses.
When I was a high school student, I did not feel comfortable talking to anyone at all. The very thought terrified me. Perhaps if we learned more about the dynamics of speechcraft I would have felt more comfortable. Speechcraft itself is an incredibly valuable utility and children should be taught how to harness it so that they may improve their communication skills.
My experience in high school was very different, it seems. I WAS taught how to speak in front of public audiences. I learned mostly from my Social Studies classes and from the Model United Nations program. Model UN focuses on debates as well as how to effectively convey ideas to an audience. Maybe this was just my experience, but my 11th grade History Teacher taught us how to speak formally. We didn't go into massive detail about the "dynamics of speechcraft" like Andrew described, but he did give us the basics.
That brings up an interesting point: is public speaking more in the realm of social studies? I know that the ELA standards include speech, but as far as Formal speaking goes, should ELA teachers be expected to teach that?
Perhaps there's an emphasis in Social Studies on public speaking because of it's connection with teaching about how government works. I don't know. What do you guys think?
As far as the sticky-notes activity Probst described, I thought it was sort of gimmicky. I don't know, I've never been a fan of activities like that.
I think the most important aspect of Probst's chapter, which Lacy touched on here (therefore I will not repeat it in a new post) is the importance of student relevancy and participation in the classroom. Lacy says that students must feel comfortable and engaged by teachers, and Probst suggests that after first starting up a "conversation" among the students, a teacher must step out of that conversation until it is flowing well enough on its own. This is what I would like to comment on.
First, on a side note, it was interesting that he did not like debate style discussions, and I thought his point on those were valid, but also kind of subjetive. I do not think of debates in the way he described, as competitive and with "winners" and "losers." Instead I think of them more the way Dr. Mueller has us do seminar workshops, where we decide the flow of discussion and debate among each other, conceding if we choose to.
I think Probst was dead-on in saying that teachers must "lure" students into talking. If a teacher tells the students to simply "discuss" the book, they will do so. They will bring up what they WANT to talk about, and even if it is started by an English-driven student, others who may not feel as comfortable with the public speaking, like Amanda mentioned, may be cured of this fear if they are simply speaking among their own peers and the subjects they are discussing are their own. The teacher should sit outside and watch this for a while. If after that time he/she chooses to participate, it should be personally driven. This is a main belief of mine.
I think teachers need to direct their discussion questions not to the whole class, but firstly to a specific student who has previously spoken. Show them that you as the teacher have been listening, and that you genuinely value their ideas. Ask them about them, question and challenge the student, and then open it up to other students to support or also challenge that idea that was brought up. It is debate-style without the competitiveness. Asking a student to prove their point against the teacher's challenge, or think about it in a different way, engages the students further by letting them really go with their own ideas. As we've mentioned in class, the idea that students cannot teach teachers, that they have no "credibility," is not true on all levels. Thus, it is important that teachers really engage with the students and participate in the student's discussion, and not drive that discussion obviously toward their own ends.
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